When I came back in the evening, every LED was lit, but nothing
worked.
I dreaded DS-Lite coming my way with a new CPE.
Thanks god it was only the power supply, I connected it to the PS of
the STB and all is fine now ;))
I dreaded DS-Lite coming my way with a new CPE.[develish mode]
It would have been interesting to hear the reports of the sysop of a fidonet node on a DS-Lite connection.
Is it doable at all? Is it a major inconvienence or just a minor one?
Thanks god it was only the power supply, I connected it to the PSLucky you. :-)
of the STB and all is fine now ;))
It would have been interesting to hear the reports of the sysop
of a fidonet node on a DS-Lite connection. Is it doable at all?
Is it a major inconvienence or just a minor one?
I guess it should be doable ...
But I would only do it if there is no other way.
But I would only do it if there is no other way.Suppose the ISPs would offer you the choice between DS-Lite and Dual
stack at an extra fee.
How much would you be prepaired to pay for Dual stack?
My guess is that this may become an option in the future. I don't
think I'd want to pay more than EUR 5 or EUR 10 a month for an IPv4 address. Above that I'd give DS-Lite a try.
But I would only do it if there is no other way.
Suppose the ISPs would offer you the choice between DS-Lite and
Dual stack at an extra fee. How much would you be prepaired to
pay for Dual stack?
I discussed this very thing with them internally.
They asked about RFC6887 (Port Control Protocol) I proposed 1
EUR/month to keep the v4.
At the moment they do not have either of those options.
My guess is that this may become an option in the future. I don't
think I'd want to pay more than EUR 5 or EUR 10 a month for an
IPv4 address. Above that I'd give DS-Lite a try.
This would be waaaaaay out of it for me.
Here the ISP that issues DS-Lite to new customers, offers the optionBut I would only do it if there is no other way.
of IPv4 only for customers that need a public IPv4 address.But that
can't be a long term solution of course.
They asked about RFC6887 (Port Control Protocol) I proposed 1I might be willing to pay EUR 1 a month for a public IPv4 address.
EUR/month to keep the v4.
At least for the time being. I would hope that in a couple of years,
IPv6 will be the dominant protocol and I would no longer need IPv4.
But I fear this will take some more time...
OTOH, when having the choice, I might try DS-Lite and see how it works
for me...
At the moment they do not have either of those options.I wonder if PCP is really a viable solution.
Only one client sharing the same IPv4 address can have port 24554 forwarded. Which may not be a problem in case of port 24554, but hwat about the more popular ports? 80 or 25?
My guess is that this may become an option in the future. I
don't think I'd want to pay more than EUR 5 or EUR 10 a month
for an IPv4 address. Above that I'd give DS-Lite a try.
This would be waaaaaay out of it for me.So if you had the choice of accepting DS-Lite and paying an extra EUR
2 a month, you'd accept DS-Lite?
For EUR 5/month you can rent a vserver with an IPv4 address and an
IPv6 /64.
It is the same here.
You can call them, and if you are lucky, they will reconfigure your
CPE to v4 only.
OTOH, when having the choice, I might try DS-Lite and see how it
works for me...
I would not want to burden me with that now.
You can get away without IPv6 currently very well.
Most people have v4 only currently around here.
So going DS-Lite is asking for additional trouble ...
I do not want to burden me with that now.
At the moment they do not have either of those options.
I wonder if PCP is really a viable solution.
Only one client sharing the same IPv4 address can have port 24554
forwarded. Which may not be a problem in case of port 24554, but
wat about the more popular ports? 80 or 25?
That was exactly my reasoning.
Port 24554 should be no issue ;)
But port 80 will be.
So they again need one public IP per PCP customer.
AND they have huge support issues.
Why not hand out public IPv4 instead?
So if you had the choice of accepting DS-Lite and paying an extra
EUR 2 a month, you'd accept DS-Lite?
??? Why would I pay more for a weaker service??
I would be willing to pay to EVADE DS-Lite ;)
Or do you mean pay 1 EUR to get a /56 IPv6 address?
Propbably yes, but only because I am a geek.
My guess is that this may become an option in the future. I don't
think I'd want to pay more than EUR 5 or EUR 10 a month for an IPv4
address. Above that I'd give DS-Lite a try.
This would be waaaaaay out of it for me.
This would be waaaaaay out of it for me.
For EUR 5/month you can rent a vserver with an IPv4 address and an IPv6 /64.
You can call them, and if you are lucky, they will reconfigureBut then you have no native IPv6...
your CPE to v4 only.
I would not want to burden me with that now.Most people can get away with DS-lite just as well or maybe even
You can get away without IPv6 currently very well.
better.
IPv4 will be different. Some day we will have to make the choice
between giving it up or pay extra for it. Or maybe just give it up, preiod.
AND they have huge support issues.Because they want us to ween off from IPv4?
Why not hand out public IPv4 instead?
What I meant was pay EUR 2 a month to get dual stack instead od
DS-Lite.
For EUR 5/month you can rent a vserver with an IPv4 address and
an IPv6 /64.
Depending on what hardware you are running at home, this could be
lower than what you have to pay for energy, to run your home server.
Indeed. I pay 7 EUR for 2 virtual but dedicated Xeon cores with 6 GB
of RAM, 320 GB SAS RAID space and Gigabit Ethernet with no traffic
limit with one IPv4 and a /64 IPv6.
Now I only need to migrate my Fido node there ... ;)
But then you have no native IPv6...
Yes ... that is the choice.
DS-Lite or public IPv4 only.
I would not want to burden me with that now.
You can get away without IPv6 currently very well.
Most people can get away with DS-lite just as well or maybe even
better.
I, personally, am not willing to get rid of my public IPv4 address.
IPv4 will be different. Some day we will have to make the choice
between giving it up or pay extra for it. Or maybe just give it
up, preiod.
Probably yes.
Currently the situation here in Austria looks different.
It seems the way they will choose here is shuffle over people to
DS-Lite (or even CGNv4) and if somebody complains reconfigure him back
to public IPv4.
AND they have huge support issues.
Why not hand out public IPv4 instead?
Because they want us to ween off from IPv4?
But how does it help them to have one public IPv4/customer for PCP to
ween off from IPv4?
What I meant was pay EUR 2 a month to get dual stack instead od
DS-Lite.
Probably yes ... but only because I am a geek.
(But 2 EUR would be the upper limit ... see my 7 EUR/month root
server)
Now I only need to migrate my Fido node there ... ;)
Indeed. I pay 7 EUR for 2 virtual but dedicated Xeon cores with 6For me that would be no fun. The kick of doing it with my own
GB of RAM, 320 GB SAS RAID space and Gigabit Ethernet with no
traffic limit with one IPv4 and a /64 IPv6.
Now I only need to migrate my Fido node there ... ;)
equipment without using third party infrastructure was the incentive
to learn morse code, so that I could get the full HAM license and talk
to the whole world on shortwave.
Wenn I can't run my own server at home and have to depend on a thirfdparty, I may as well go back to being a point. ;-)
Yes ... that is the choice.But I am the IPv6 evngelist, I want IPv6. Preferably native IPv6. :)
DS-Lite or public IPv4 only.
Considering that in the long run it may be inevitable anyway.
AND they have huge support issues.
Why not hand out public IPv4 instead?
Because they want us to ween off from IPv4?
But how does it help them to have one public IPv4/customer forMaybe they hope that most customers only need IPv4/port for a short
PCP to ween off from IPv4?
time and not permanently so that they can rotate the adresses/ports
among customers.
(But 2 EUR would be the upper limit ... see my 7 EUR/month rootWhat if they gave you a 5 EUR/Month discount on DS-Lite? <BEG>
server)
You still have to install applications and maintain the vserver. That isn't any different from running a server at home. The vserver in some datacenter has also a few benefits, like UPS, faster internet access
and multiple internet connections for redundancy.
Not my point of view at all.
No fun is when the SD Card (or eMMC) in my odroid (where the node currently rund) fails again :)
Also not fun running the fido traffic
over the shared residential connection which has only 7 MBit/s in
upstream and is used for all LAN access from my home.
Not my point of view at all.
No fun is when the SD Card (or eMMC) in my odroid (where the node
currently rund) fails again :)
SD cards were not designed to be written so many times...
BTW, my IPv6 prefix has not changed since I started using my present
cable modem.
BTW, my IPv6 prefix has not changed since I started using my
present cable modem.
Same here. It seemed to stop changing once I had my IPv6 firewall all sorted out (on my router) and quit saving settings and rebooting it.
But now that I've said something, I should probably keep an eye on it
to make sure it doesn't change on me all of a sudden. :)
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-
Also not fun running the fido traffic
over the shared residential connection which has only 7 MBit/s in
upstream and is used for all LAN access from my home.
BTW, my IPv6 prefix has not changed since I started using my present
cable modem.
Same here. It seemed to stop changing once I had my IPv6 firewall all sorted out (on my router) and quit saving settings and rebooting it.
But now that I've said something, I should probably keep an eye on it
to make sure it doesn't change on me all of a sudden. :)
Same here. It seemed to stop changing once I had my IPv6 firewall
all sorted out (on my router) and quit saving settings and
rebooting it. But now that I've said something, I should probably
keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't change on me all of a
sudden. :)
My IPv6 prefix is static. I added the option for static IPv4 and IPv6 addresses (along with some other options) for a small fee. :)
My IPv6 prefix is static. I added the option for static IPv4 and IPv6 addresses (along with some other options) for a small fee. :)
But I am the IPv6 evangelist, I want IPv6. Preferably native IPv6. :)
I am not as fundamentalist ;))
I want it if I get an advantage out of it.
Currently i do not see any big advantage of IPv6.
Considering that in the long run it may be inevitable anyway.
The long run is veeeeeeery long.
Until then I want my public IPv4 ;)
What if they gave you a 5 EUR/Month discount on DS-Lite? <BEG>
Nope ... I want my v4!! ;)
I do have a public v4 even on my phone ;)
Yeah, I wish I had that speed on my _downlink_, and my uplink is only 1Mbps. However, when the net network comes to town, I'l be upgrading
to 100/40. :)
Richard Menedetter wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
Actually they increased the speed to 100/10 for everybody but me ;)
But I got a monthly bonus (reduction of fee) instead.
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
Yeah, I wish I had that speed on my _downlink_, and my uplink is only 1Mbps. However, when the net network comes to town, I'l be upgrading
to 100/40. :)
The "net network"?
No fun is when the SD Card (or eMMC) in my odroid (where the nodeSD cards were not designed to be written so many times...
currently rund) fails again :)
Oh, c'mon. In the haydays of Fidonet we could do with 14k4 bps.
And now 500 times that speed is too slow?
BTW, my IPv6 prefix has not changed since I started using my present
cable modem.
over the shared residential connection which has only 7 MBit/s inYeah, I wish I had that speed on my _downlink_, and my uplink is only 1Mbps.
upstream and is used for all LAN access from my home.
However, when the net network comes to town, I'l be upgrading to
100/40. :)
Currently i do not see any big advantage of IPv6.
The fun will start when there's www.next-big-hype.com running IPv6
only because of the lack of IPv4.
But there are benefits already. If you run servers you see tons of scanning and brute force attacks, e.g. ssh. I haven't seen any considerable scanning for IPv6 yet.
At the moment we still have the chance of a smooth transition, but as longer we wait and postpone as more rough it will become.
Markus Reschke wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-
The fun will start when there's www.next-big-hype.com running IPv6 only because of the lack of IPv4. But there are benefits already. If you run servers you see tons of scanning and brute force attacks, e.g. ssh. I haven't seen any considerable scanning for IPv6 yet.
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Markus Reschke <=-
But there are benefits already. If you run servers you see tons of scanning and brute force attacks, e.g. ssh. I haven't seen any considerable scanning for IPv6 yet.
With IPv4 and NAT one can only ping the router. With IPv6 every device
on the LAN can have its own public address. You can ping my fido
machine at fido.vlist.eu. You can ping my RIPE-ATLAS probe at atlas.vlist.eu. You can ping my wife's computer at pozel.vlist.eu when
it is switched on. Etc, etc.
At the moment we still have the chance of a smooth transition, but as longer we wait and postpone as more rough it will become.
I think we are already too late for a smooth transition. The IPv6 adoption should have been completed before IPv4 ran out. The fact that people revolt against DS-Lite and still want a public IPv4 address illustrates that.
Currently i do not see any big advantage of IPv6.I can see your point as a consumer. But ... you are not just a
consumer of internet services. You are a Fidonet sysop. What happened
to that pioneer spirit that created Fidonet 30 years ago?
Also... That attidute is one of the reasons IPv6 takes so long to get
off the ground. Everyone just looks at the short term benefits.
Consumers, ISPs and manufacturers, they are all guilty. We all know
that that the IPv4 number pool has been exhausted and something needs
to be done to ensure the continued operation of the Internet.
But everyone is waiting for others to take the first steps. :(
The long run is veeeeeeery long.Making predictions is easy. Making predictions thay come true is not
so easy. When the predictions concern the future, itis very hard.
They may still be in use in some remote corners of the cyberworld, but they play no role of significance any more. My educated guess is that
the same will happen to IPv4 in the not too distant future.
Better be prepaired..
Until then I want my public IPv4 ;)You may or you may not get what you want...
I do have a public v4 even on my phone ;)I don't. My phone is just a phone. It does not have an IP number.
I do have a G2/G3 dongle for my laptop. I get a CGNAT address on that.
No IPv6 :(
The fun will start when there's www.next-big-hype.com running IPv6
only because of the lack of IPv4.
But there are benefits already. If you run servers you see tons of scanning and brute force attacks, e.g. ssh. I haven't seen any considerable scanning for IPv6 yet.
At the moment we still have the chance of a smooth transition, but as longer we wait and postpone as more rough it will become.
Actually they increased the speed to 100/10 for everybody but meSo how come you didn't get the speed? Technical issues?
;) But I got a monthly bonus (reduction of fee) instead.
Yes, if someone comes up with a killer app that works on IPv6 only,
then there will be a mad scramble. People like us, who are already on IPv6 will be in the box seat to take it up. :)
While all of my devices have public IPv6 addresses, you can only ping
the ones that I have setup as servers. The others are blocked for unsolicited incoming traffic by my firewall, which blocks everything inbound by default.
I personal view is different.
I have written my thesis about Mobile IPv6, and have IPv6 vie tunnek
(6bone, Sixxs and now HE) since 2004.
But a "normal" user does not have a real tangible advantage from IPv6
today.
That is why "normal" people do not demand IPv6, because it does not make
a difference for many users.
My current point of view is that the relevant servers for most people (google, akamai, Facebook, etc.) will have dual stack.
And that 75% of the people will not care if they have DS, DS-Lite or
CGNATv4.
It simply makes no difference to them.
They can watch Youtube and go to Facebook, and they see no difference.
But there are benefits already. If you run servers you see tons of
scanning and brute force attacks, e.g. ssh. I haven't seen any
considerable scanning for IPv6 yet.
It will come, though it wouldn't be brute force by address, as the address space is so huge. It's more likely to be DNS based, targeting hosts that have AAAA records, as well as other situations where once
an IPv6 host is discovered by some other means, scanning will
commentce.
While all of my devices have public IPv6 addresses, you can only ping
the ones that I have setup as servers. The others are blocked for unsolicited incoming traffic by my firewall, which blocks everything inbound by default.
But a "normal" user does not have a real tangible advantage from IPv6 today. That is why "normal" people do not demand IPv6, because it does
not make a difference for many users.
To be honest ... there still are not enough pain points.
Most people do not care even when they have CGNATv4.
And the big ISPs have large enough pools to cover people who care with "real v4" addresses.
If many people would terminate their ISP contract because of that, it would change. As long as the average end customer sees no benefit for himself, he will not care. And when 95% of the customers do not care,
the ISPs do not care.
The long run is veeeeeeery long.
Making predictions is easy. Making predictions thay come true is not
so easy. When the predictions concern the future, it is very hard.
true ;)
My current point of view is that the relevant servers for most people (google, akamai, Facebook, etc.) will have dual stack.
And that 75% of the people will not care if they have DS, DS-Lite or CGNATv4. It simply makes no difference to them.
They can watch Youtube and go to Facebook, and they see no difference.
Until then I want my public IPv4 ;)
You may or you may not get what you want...
I am quit sure that I will get this particular wish for a reasonable amount of time in the future ;)
I do not really use it for anything on the phone, but it is there.
But my previous operator (Hutchison 3g) and my current one UPC both
give public dynamic IPs. (Yes even UPC who reconfigured their cable network to DS-Lite)
Yes, if someone comes up with a killer app that works on IPv6We have been waiting for that IPv6 killer app for years...
only, then there will be a mad scramble. People like us, who are
already on IPv6 will be in the box seat to take it up. :)
But a "normal" user does not have a real tangible advantage fromWell, the point is somewhat that the situation which you quoted as "normal" actually wasn't normal, but we got people accustomed to it,
IPv6 today. That is why "normal" people do not demand IPv6, because
it does not make a difference for many users.
And that 75% of the people will not care if they have DS, DS-Lite or
CGNATv4. It simply makes no difference to them.
so it ended up as your second half, "as long as FB/YT have ips I can
reach then internet is up", but when v4 really starts running out so
that even us "white male computer nerds" can get an address of their
own,
and you can't set up a server _at all_ anymore without renting
one IP from FB/Google/AWS,
then perhaps someone would listen to reason
from the stiff old people who can say that "when I grew up, anyone had
a real ip of their own, we still firewalled, but you could allow
access to your server if you wanted". And you can get back to that situation, with v6 which is getting more and more available.
I think Asia and Africa are seeing lots more of using v6, since they
got so puny allocations compared to US/EU so the revolution may come
from that end.
Some weird service which runs only on v6 which pushes
people to beg their ISPs. (pokemon related? ;)
Richard Menedetter wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
They basically changed their package in a way that I did not like, and told me that I can either migrate to the new package or get a reduction and stay in the old one.
I have the minimal TV package included.
They have thrown out the only TV channels that I sometimes watch. (BR-Alpha, Discovery, Arte, Ph%nix, History channel, ....)
I do not watch TV often, but when I do I watch those.
And the additional 25 MBit/s .... does not really make a difference to
me, so I did not migrate to the new package.
(OK ... the added 2.5 MBit upstream would have been nice ... but ...
meh)
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
We have been waiting for that IPv6 killer app for years...
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
My previous router (Linksys WRT54G: runing OpenWrt) had that option. My present modem/router on;y has the option of allowing/disallowing it for all devices on the LAN. I see no harm in switching it on.
Markus Reschke wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
While all of my devices have public IPv6 addresses, you can only ping
the ones that I have setup as servers. The others are blocked for unsolicited incoming traffic by my firewall, which blocks everything inbound by default.
The decision is your's. The point is that IPv6 allows you to choose, a single IPv4 address plus NAT don't.
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-
Indeed. "Normal" customers should not be bothered with these details.
My UPC has been telling me that customers would not notice the
transition to IPv6. They have been telling that since about 2010. Ans indeed I haven't noticed anything until last summer. No IPv6, no
nothing. The they went quiet. And now I have IPv6. But they stopped mentioing it on their official publications. So my IPv6 is
"unopfficial". It may be gone tomorrow.
True. My syster lives in a home for the elderlt people. She has a
laptop, but no internet connection of her own. She uses the WiFi
network of the home. So she is behind a NAT. No IPv6 and so she only
has an IPv4 address in the private range. She does not know that. She does not know what a NAT is, she does not know what a public IPv4
address is. People like her do not have to know.
I disagree with this.
This will not happen.
What will happen (and is already happening) is that big ISPs take away IPv4 addresses from "normal" users, and give them either DS-Lite or CGNATv4 and reuse or sell their recovered stock.
So for me the conclusio is, that people who do not care will loose
their public v4 address. But anybody can get single v4 addresses for relatively cheap. I predict that v4 addresses will stay cheap for
"white male computer nerds" (as you put it)
may come from that end.
Actually I would not put US and EU in the same league.
US had much more IPs, because it started ARPAnet.
Stanford and many US companies have /8s!
EU never had that.
But I agree that Asia and Africa have tiny IP pools compared to the US
and EU.
My previous router (Linksys WRT54G: runing OpenWrt) had that
option. My present modem/router only has the option of
allowing/disallowing it for all devices on the LAN. I see no
harm in switching it on.
My IPv6 firewall is permanently on. I have to manually turn it off
for any device I want to allow inbound access to, or I can just open specific TCP or UDP ports per device
(don't have the option to open a port for the entire network).
Sometimes inconvenient, but a sensible and secure default.
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
I see, this may be read in a way I did not intend. I was specifically refering to PING here. For PING, I can only allow or disallow it for
the entire LAN.
I can allow inbound access to a given destination for a single port or
a range of ports. TCP, UDP or both. I can not selectively open it for other protocols than TCP or UDP.
(don't have the option to open a port for the entire network).
I can do that by specifying :: as the destination address.
Sometimes inconvenient, but a sensible and secure default.
Sure.
And that 75% of the people will not care if they have DS, DS-LiteIndeed. It makes no difference to "normal user" my sister.
or CGNATv4. It simply makes no difference to them.
But I am not my sister. I am not a "normal user" and neither are you.
We /know/ something about networking. We have studied, we have
degrees, we know what we are talking about. And that comes with resposibilities. We can not remain silent and say that it does not
concern us.
Yes, it does not really affect us now, but we can see
ahead. We can not predict the future, but we can see that a falling
stone will eventually hit the ground. So we have to speak up. To our
ISPs and to our governments.
The internet is to important a resource to leave it to the market
alone.
I disagree with this.But the fact that IPv4 space can be sold and that in order to do that, they have to retrieve address space from their "normal" customers indicates that adresses are scarse.
This will not happen.
What will happen (and is already happening) is that big ISPs take
away IPv4 addresses from "normal" users, and give them either
DS-Lite or CGNATv4 and reuse or sell their recovered stock.
So for me the conclusio is, that people who do not care willI predict that eventually they will become worthless. When "everyone"
loose their public v4 address. But anybody can get single v4
addresses for relatively cheap. I predict that v4 addresses will
stay cheap for "white male computer nerds" (as you put it)
has IPv6, there will no longer be a substantial demand for IPv4 and so
the price will drop to zero.
Yes, it does not really affect us now, but we can see
ahead. We can not predict the future, but we can see that a
falling stone will eventually hit the ground. So we have to speak
up. To our ISPs and to our governments.
Speaking up to the government is important.
Speaking out to the ISP can only be done on a monetary basis (at least that is what I have experienced)
The internet is too important a resource to leave it to the market
alone.
I was visiting the IPv6 TaskForce events in Austria in 2006. http://www.ipv6tf.org/
The goal was to do lobbying for IPv6, the results were not visible.
I am sorry ... bit I am disillusioned ...
The IPv6TF head was the CTO of a big ISP ... the same ISP is still not offering residential IPv6.
Currently I am quit sure that real change will only come when "normal" people demand IPv6. When they feel the pain, and make the ISP also
feel the pain EN MASSE.
But the fact that IPv4 space can be sold and that in order to do
that, they have to retrieve address space from their "normal"
customers indicates that adresses are scarse.
Sure ... but not scarce enough.
UPC has switched to DS-Lite by default for their ISP customers.
They also started a MVNO recently, and they are handing out PUBLIC v4 (only, no V6) addresses. Very few people need public v4 addresses on
their mobiles.
So for me the conclusio is, that people who do not care will
loose their public v4 address. But anybody can get single v4
addresses for relatively cheap. I predict that v4 addresses will
stay cheap for "white male computer nerds" (as you put it)
I predict that eventually they will become worthless. When
"everyone" has IPv6, there will no longer be a substantial demand
for IPv4 and so the price will drop to zero.
I agree ... the question is when will this point in time be ...
I really do not know ...
I was visiting the IPv6 TaskForce events in Austria in 2006.We have a Dutch equivalent: http://new.ipv6-taskforce.nl/
http://www.ipv6tf.org/
But as you can see, nothng much is happening any more. The Dutch IPv6
Task Froce fell asleep in 2014. :(
http://www.ipv6tf.org/
We have a Dutch equivalent: http://new.ipv6-taskforce.nl/
The Austrian equivalent seems to have disappeared :(
But as you can see, nothng much is happening any more. The Dutch
IPv6 Task Froce fell asleep in 2014. :(
But at least it still exists ... in Austria it has disappeared.
BTW ... nice book
http://www.ipv6tf.org/pdf/ipv6forall.pdf
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